About this episode:

Alistair Thompson, Global Head of Business Development and Partnerships of TransferWise joins host Manseeb Khan to talk about their mission to make sending money as easy and free as sending an email.  They discuss how TransferWise began 9 years ago, and how transparent pricing, putting customers first and partnering with banks and non-banks globally has grown into a $5 billion monthly business and an international fintech success.

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Fintech Friday Transcript of Episode 46: TransferWise

Intro: Welcome to fintech Friday's a weekly podcast brought to you by the National Crowdfunding and Fintech Association of Canada and partners. Covering all things fintech, blockchain, AI and alternative finance.

Manseeb Khan: [00:00:00] Hey everybody Manseeb Khan welcome to another fantastic episode of the FinTech Friday podcast. I'm super excited for this guest. This is a company that I've heard of. From when I first started, like these guys were one of the big dogs, when I first enter the fintech space like three or four years ago, and now they're even bigger than ever. So it's a win-win. Today I got Alastair from TransferWise. Thanks so much for jumping on the show today.

Alastair Thompson: [00:01:06] Oh, yeah, my pleasure.Thanks for having me Manseeb awesome intro.

Manseeb Khan: [00:01:11] Thank you. Thank you. So Alastair for the I mean, you know, my mom does listen to this for my mom. And like the three or four people that may not know anything about TransferWise or anything of what you do, could you just give us, like, a brief intro?

Alastair Thompson: [00:01:26] Yeah totally, what's your mom's name?

Manseeb Khan: [00:01:29]  My mom's name is Shaheen.

Alastair Thompson: [00:01:33] For Shaheen using what TransferWise does is move money internationally to move it from one currency to another currency, but at a lower price, an honest price and at a speed that was never thought possible. Nine years when we were founded back in back in 2011. And the way that we do it is through a combination of having our own local bank network and the technology that we've developed so that we can move money around the world in seconds, which is pretty awesome. And then if you compare on price to a bank, a bank can charge up to five percent on an international transaction. And we are average prices is zero point seven five. So it's pretty cool what we're doing.

Manseeb Khan: [00:02:25] Yeah.Point 75 something, I mean, point five percent to everybody may not sound a lot, but Jesus Christ, does that five percent add up if you're doing like daily transactions and that's one person and then you just multiply that, oh my God, it is like the just the banking fees in itself is astronomical compared to like what the startup rates are going at. It's yeah. It's a wild.

Alastair Thompson: [00:02:53] And this is it's really important to us that everybody understands what they are paying because there's typically a transaction fee and then there's an additional fee in the exchange rate.You know, when you go on holiday and you're at the airport, a few years ago, you used to get cash out and then the advertisers would say no fees or free today or whatever, and then you'd get an exchange rate to switch your Canadian dollars into US dollars or British pounds or wherever you are traveling to. But within the exchange rate was the fee and it's not transparent. And still, unfortunately, most of our market, most providers in our market, banks and otherwise still do this.They still have a hidden spread in the exchange rate. And that's what TransferWise is all about. We use the mid-market exchange rate, which is absolutely what that currency is worth at that particular second. And we separate all of our fees away from the exchange rate. And it's super important to us that customers understand what they're paying.

Manseeb Khan: [00:04:06] Yeah, no, it's I mean, if one of the more overarching themes in the two seasons, now three seasons of the show has been an education in the fintech space. Right. It's been, you know. Teaching people, making them aware of like, hey, you know, like the hidden bank fees, transaction fees, and why these are so important and why people should be paying attention to it, not only on a consumer level, but if you are a business owner. If you are. Yeah. If you are business owners of these these little transactions here, they might not make sense to you. I mean, and a lot of sense, nor should they be a business to run. But understanding where all these little intricacies come from and understanding, hey, you're getting gypped on paying five percent per transaction fee just to send money or to do X, Y and Z. It's not good. And it's going to cost you so much more money in the long run.

Alastair Thompson: [00:05:03] Exactly, and it's our whole mentality as a company to pay as you go and pay for the service that you get. And I think that the sort of OG way of doing it is to charge unsuspecting customers as much as possible because they didn't understand what they were paying because it wasn't clear. And our mentality is that you should pay the same for the service that you require.And I'm very proud to work for TransferWise I've been here for three years now. And I'm still equally proud as when they offered me a job.

Manseeb Khan: [00:05:42] Yeah. So how did you get started? I mean, like, you know, being the global head of business development and partnerships, I mean, that's no small role, right? Like That's, you have to start at some point. Right. Like, how did you like how did that whole journey begin?

Alastair Thompson: [00:06:02] For me personally, a while ago, I'm getting older, so I took a year, a high street bank, and I was part of that back office processing team and immediately didn't like it because you were taught one process and you weren't given any ability to enhance or change the process and you weren't given the opportunity to learn a different process because that was somebody else's job. So I quickly lost interest in this and moved to one of the early fintechs which was Earthcorp, which was after that payment solution provider that was acquired by Visa after I left and I spent 10 years there and I worked through the operations team, you know, Treasury reconciliation and product, and then started working on the client-side. And that's why I love doing, you know, I  love meeting prospective customers, existing customers and figuring out solutions for them. And I always knew about TransferWise in the market, but I didn't know that they were moving into B2B and working, working with APIs. And as it goes in in England, I met someone in a pub who works for Transferwise and he told me that this was sort of the next venture. So I applied and I've been at TransferWise, three years now and, you know, pushing, pushing, TransferWise from being a presumedly consumer and small business provider into this platform space took a few years because, you know, significant work to do to move this forward. But we're in a really strong place now on the nonbank and on the bank partnership side. And it's super exciting place to work.

Manseeb Khan: [00:08:09] Right. I mean, to your little point of getting older, I found my final white hair, my beard probably a couple of weeks ago, and I just turned twenty-five recently. I'm now hopping on the same boat of being old or as my younger sister says, a boomer, which makes no sense because I'm a millennial. but you know c'est la vie I guess.

Alastair Thompson: [00:08:34] I got a first grey hair like recently.

Manseeb Khan: [00:08:40] It was a shattering I, I froze. I just looked in the mirror. I'm like getting old. I got to get it together.

Alastair Thompson: [00:08:49] My wife's super excited about it. Oh yeah.

Manseeb Khan: [00:08:53] Women love the salt and pepper look. That's. It's I mean you can love it all you want. Doesn't make me feel better at all. It doesn't help.

Alastair Thompson: [00:09:02] I take grey hairs then it falling out. I am much happier with grey hairs then no hair. No. Yeah.

Manseeb Khan: [00:09:11] No that's you know that's, that's. So why did the B2B side interest you a lot more than the consumer side? Because not many people think like not many people get very excited about business to business. There is a very, very small percentage of people who get excited for business to business. Why were you so excited for the business to buiness side?

Alastair Thompson: [00:09:31] Good question, because I believed I had something to offer a TransferWise, but I only worked on the business side like partnering with banks and corporate sized businesses, and you never really had an interaction with the end customer.And that's where I sort of developed my experience. I like it because it's such a challenge to get right because it's super complex making these solutions work for an end customer that you don't have a direct relationship. But when you get it right, the potential is enormous.

Manseeb Khan: [00:10:12] Could you talk a little bit more on Mission zero and what and like what the overarching goal is of Mission zero?

Alastair Thompson: [00:10:33] Yeah, totally. So we believe we have a mission that sending money should be as easy and as free as sending an email because it is an exchange of data. So we have a target as a company to keep reducing fees and to it to an endpoint of eventually being free. And it's quite an ambition, but it's super motivating for all of us to TransferWise because it means that you never settle, it can always be cheaper. And we have such a granular view  of our costs. And because we're a cost plus margin price business, we see our costs as good as our customers money. So we're all super, super careful about limiting them where we can and reducing them as we scale. And then we pass those savings on to our customers. So instead of increasing margin as far as our cost reduce, we reduce our prices. And again, it will get us ever closer to being free, although it's probably quite a few years off yet.

Manseeb Khan: [00:11:57] Yeah, I mean, 0.75% you guys are getting close , right. So that's no small feat. So, you know, you guys are doing incredible stuff.

Alastair Thompson: [00:12:08] Thank you. It's complex because the more available we get to the more countries, that TransferWise is available to the consumers and businesses and each different market, its different currency pair further and further complexity to the model. So. Well, on the one hand, keep investing TransferWise to make things faster and more scalable and more available, and then on the other hand, we're trying to reduce our costs at the same time to reduce our prices. So it's it's a juggling act. It's not easy, It's not easy, but it's a cool problem to solve because it means we're always thinking about the customer and putting the customer first.

Manseeb Khan: [00:13:08] Yeah, I mean, hey, like you said yourself, the company's mission is to make money transfer as easy as sending an email. It should be free. That's no small feat and nor should it be easy. Like anything worth doing, anything that's going to change on a global scale of what TransferWise mission is you don't expect it to be easy, nor should it. Right. It feels easy. And let's find a different problem to solve because it's not that interesting.

Alastair Thompson: [00:13:34] Yeah, yeah, it goes back to how we were founded, our founders just on time at a party in London and my party days are behind me, but I've never talked about solving international payments on a on a Saturday night with someone before. But thankfully, they did. And they just saw this need in a in the market to sell for. And it's it's incredible really how far we've come in nine years. We're moving five billion dollars a month globally now, which is no small feat, but it's also a fraction of the total addressable market of international payments. So we still see ourselves as just getting started really.

Manseeb Khan: [00:14:21] Wow that's a great mindset to have. So, you know, now that we are in a pandemic. You know, you know, world economy shut down all the fun stuff's really happening. How is covid-19 impacted TransferWise and how do you think that has impacted the fintech space as a whole?

Alastair Thompson: [00:14:44] It's been a weird year, hasn't it? I mean, firstly, at an employee level again super proud of our company, we transition to fully working from home within a couple of days of the guidelines back in March. And we transition pretty seamlessly to keep operationally servicing customers and continuing to develop product changes. It's no small thing to suddenly all be doing it from home. But the company was awesome in supporting employees and getting people what they needed very quickly to do it. In terms of the space in general. I mean, we've seen a lot of companies cutting costs, which is simply difficult decisions to make to lose staff through to this period. Thankfully, we haven't needed to do that. And so we've been able to keep progressing as a company and to keep advancing what we have rather than cutting back, which is super cool.

Manseeb Khan: [00:16:01] Yeah, no, that's I mean, that's incredible. Cutting costs during these times is no fun for anybody. So you did briefly mention of like, you know, now that TransferWise is opening up to more countries and now you have more interesting challenges. You know. My question for you is like, how do businesses go global?

Alastair Thompson: [00:16:34] I'll use TransferWise as an example, we started with only having one currency pair, we started moving euros to pounds and pounds to euros, and this might surprise people from where we are now. But, you know, TransferWise I started on a spreadsheet of people effectively peer-to-peer matching their trades. We built this up over time so that we got a customer base in Europe and we started to expand within Europe. And then as we've gone, we've added people on the ground in new offices and in different markets. I think to broaden out the answer to your question, it's super, super important to understand the market you're going into and how it differs from where you are today. So I think a discovery phase before any investment is probably the first step to look at. Is there a need for the business that's been created in that market? How is the market served today by other players? And is the business that you're bringing going to ultimately help people or businesses  with their needs in the way that we've evolved globally. There is a global need to move money internationally, and consumers and small-medium businesses are typically underserved in every market by legacy banks. So we found that that made globally.

Manseeb Khan: [00:18:27] Yeah. I mean, you brought up a good point. Understanding. Does the country need your business? Could you help them? Could you help people in your business? I think it seems like a very silly question to ask yourself, but by all means, it's probably one of the best questions to ask yourself, like, hey, are we needed in Singapore, like, are we needed in Thailand or we need in this country? Oh we're not so lets move on to countries where we aren't needed. And I would do like discovery phase and all that fun stuff.

Alastair Thompson: [00:19:01] And it's important to get the cultural differences right as well, because, you know, it's obviously English is predominantly spoken language worldwide and to my detriment. I've never really learned a second language because I've never really had to. But in a way, we pride ourselves that our content is available in 11 different languages. And it's not just translated to through Google Translate or something. It's translated by someone who is bilingual. And all that stuff is super important in moving in into a new market where you perhaps didn't have the presence or the brand name previously, right?

Manseeb Khan: [00:19:49] Yeah, I know, as you're saying, that I got a flashback to my international business course. And my professor was like, any time you go to a new country to make sure you learn the culture, make sure you learn the language, make sure you learn all the customary things. You can bring the Canadian American ass over there and expect everything is going to go and dandy. The way you do business in Abu Dhabi compared to how you do business in the United States is completely different. And he had that drilled into our heads that I was like, OK, you got a little flashback in class jitters. It's a good lesson. I mean, like, again, it's such an obvious thing of like, hey, of course you've got to you got to do a country. You want to learn the culture so you can learn all the little intricacies so you don't accidentally disrespect or accidentally mess up somewhere and, you know, jeopardizing this whole thing.

Alastair Thompson: [00:20:40] Exactly, exactly.

Manseeb Khan: [00:20:41] Yeah, for sure. So, you know, when it comes to making strategic partnerships, what are some things that business owners should be looking for? You know, you're part of the business to business side. Right.  But what should business owners keep in mind? What should they be looking for?

Alastair Thompson: [00:21:00] I said to answer from our point of view, first we can look at TransferWise partnerships from sort of two two vantage points. Are we partnering with  a business or a bank? And it enhances their products directly and sort of drives volumes through our products, or are we partnering in the other way around and their product is enhancing our product. If this makes sense. So where we focus as a team is looking at both and TransferWise, as I said, we're nine years old, where we're even younger on a partnership side. So  we started partnering with, you know, with banks initially N26 and Mongo in the U.K., EQbank here in Canada, etc.. And then on the nonbank side, we've partnered with Zero. We've just recently partnered with Ember's, which is a global expense management system. And they're all similar in the respect that our payment services are now available to you, to the partner's customers. And the other way around today is to use a partners capabilities and make them available to our customers. So we do this with reconciliation, Bank feed links, in accounting software, we do it with payment partners. So we  partner with Alipay in China to process payments  to that their wallet holders to really come in both directions. But It has to add value, it has to add value either way. Otherwise it's maybe not strategic.

Manseeb Khan: [00:23:05] Right. No, I mean, if it doesn't have value, then it can't be strategic. So for a start-up, I mean, a lot of  people in my circle, I come from the startup world. I mean, so do you for startups. So for startups, what partnerships should they be looking for and how would they go about doing it?

Alastair Thompson: [00:23:34] It's a good question. So from them, we get approached all the time from start-ups about partnership opportunities, and it's tough you know, from the vantage point of the start-up. It's difficult to get attention and not be ignored because there are so many different requests all the time. So I think the advice that I would give is, is understand the specific edge that you have, you know, understand what you are bringing to the table and be super clear if that is going to add value to the business you're trying to partner with. You know, we get requests all the time that the inbound requests were a perfect fit for your customer base. And there isn't really a deep dive on why or how. And I think the analysis that qualification peices is super important before reaching out, before trying to make contact with potential partners is understanding. Is it the right fit? Is it the customer base that would benefit through a partnership. I make that decision carefully because partnerships are a lot of work that they're not easy to get right and there are a lot of investment on both sides. And the risk of partnering with a startup is there might be no return to the four that would be partners. So take all of that into account before just, you know, casting a net out to see who he replies. And I think that detailed qualification upfront can make conversion percentages much more successful with which would-be partners.

Manseeb Khan: [00:25:29] Yeah. So you boys, you heard that you just need to make sure you do your homework before you approach Alastair. Don't just give them a shotgun approach on elevator pitch this,come with a detailed plan if you want to partner with TransferWise. That's what you're saying.

Alastair Thompson: [00:25:52] Getting someone to look at something, it's got to be good, you know, to initially get the attention, but also keep the attention because there's so much opportunity and so much work out that to focus on. It's, again, getting super clear on that initial pitch. And we fine tune ours  all the time. You there isn't a silver bullet to the perfect outreach, but continuing to fine-tune it and make it specific to the audience that you're sending it to. I think this is super important.

Manseeb Khan: [00:26:30] Yeah. I mean, it's a lot like I know we talked about this before the show, but I guess it's a lot like dating, right? It's like you want to make sure that, like everything, everything aligns. You can't  speed date this. You can't like you can't take the tinder and like online dating approach. I'm just like, hey, I'm going to email blast a hundred companies and then ten of them might say hi. And then one of them might be a strategic partner. That's not the approach.We shouldn't be taking at all.

Alastair Thompson: [00:26:56] I mean, it's awful and you can really tell when you came up with that, and  it's the same approach that you then get two, three, four or five follow up emails and it's annoying. It's really off-putting. And if you don't make a positive impact on the stakeholder, you're trying to get in touch with they're not even going to look at what you're saying after a point is it's absolutely not the right approach to just start hassling people because the urgency is on your side and on their side.

Manseeb Khan: [00:27:33] Yeah, that's a really good point. I think a lot of people. It's never on your side because, like, hey, you're reaching out to me. Like, why do you why is there a timeline all of a sudden I'm just saying, hi, I thought this is just coffee what I'm just here for, my double, double life. What's going on is this is ridiculous. Like what? So how would you know, now that you guys are expanding, guys are entering more countries. How do you guys network into another country? Do you guys like how do you find people of influence? Do you reach out to other startups, like how is the approach of when it comes to entering new countries?

Alastair Thompson: [00:28:20] Yeah, it's all those things, and certainly this year has made it harder, you know, the way that we like to do is to go to conferences and go to relevant conferences for our industry. And it's and then it's big and so on networks through other attendees. So we have a virtual conference circuit isn't really the same for networking. So what we've had to do in the last year is honestly just spend more time on LinkedIn meeting them. We probably did before. I think that everybody is probably at home at the moment and everybody's online more at the moment. So, you know. Talk to people in an online way rather than in person, which isn't as good, but it's all that we can do right now.

Manseeb Khan: [00:29:27] Yeah, I mean, again, you're talking to anybody through LinkedIn. It's never fun. It's very it feels very impersonal. But I mean, you know, now that we are moving in a more digitalized world, I mean, you know, we're both in the digital space.It's somewhat inevitable, if anything.

Alastair Thompson: [00:29:49] It's you know, I get Zoom fatigue at the end of the day because you're just talking into you Mac all day, but it's where we are at the moment, isn't it?

Manseeb Khan: [00:30:01] I mean, I have I thankfully have a painting of my youngest sister. She drew like a lake by a dock. So I kind of just look at that. I imagine myself like at a lake house, just like, OK, yeah, we're OK.

Alastair Thompson: [00:30:17] I love that. And yeah, our apartment, every inch of wall is covered in artwork and photographs. So yeah, it helps absolutely.

Manseeb Khan: [00:30:31] Like it helps you to sort out for a little bit like OK, we're good, we're good, we're good. Just make it through this meeting that we got five more and then we're good to go. We're done. Just five more and we're done.

Alastair Thompson: [00:30:42] And it's like yeah it's it's better for the waistline and constant trips to the fridge for snacks as well. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Manseeb Khan: [00:30:50] You're telling me I'm miserable. So what are some you know, what are some of the trends and insights that you have your eye on?

Alastair Thompson: [00:31:26] Yeah, and I mean, I think, again, maybe I'm sort of going back over to the previous answer, but with everybody being at home, I think the adoption of fintech in older generations, older populations is increased quite a lot this year,  And it's cool. It's cool that a lot of consumers are starting to question what they were using previously and look for disruptive technologies that are perhaps serving their needs better t than how they were using them before. So thankfully, we're in that space and we're finding that, you know, we're still being used regularly by previous customer base and and and new ones as well. I think the other trend that's interesting that's related to TransferWise is regular is showing an increasing interest in fintech, whether it's getting sandbox access that we've seen in  certain markets and seeing how that can be improvements, so not just being reactive to change, but actually building a need to be part of it, which is super cool.

Manseeb Khan: [00:32:56] Yeah. I mean, I was going to I don't want interrupt. I was going to say finally, good goodness. Finally, man, I've been in this I've been in the space for, what, three years. I've been hearing about regulators from day one. Like there's yeah. You can probably yeah. If I think all the episodes together I can probably section out a good three hours of just talking about regulators.

Alastair Thompson: [00:33:46] Yeah, yeah. I mean, we'll take it and we've always pushed them to, you know, look at change and look at this is the customer being served in the right way. And one example in Singapore going back a little bit. But you previously had to review someone's documentation for an account which was in person. So we have to have people in person and customers would have to come to the office and have their IDs checked in person. And we petition was woefully out of date and it should be moved online. And it is now and it's just it's an example where we pushed and it's we do similar things with transparent fees and we push for legislation to be become the norm that consumers and businesses should understand and be very aware of what they're paying for cross-border payments.

Manseeb Khan: [00:34:54] And, you know, digitizing the online check-ins,You guys the whole role is to make things as seamless, as easy as possible. Right. The goal is to make it as simple as an email. And this is one of the many ways that's going to happen.

Alastair Thompson: [00:35:11] And I understand in Canada, it is going to be faster payment system and some changes to the licensing of stuff and it's all cool. It's all great because it means that the customer ends up with a better service, which is awesome.

Manseeb Khan: [00:35:32] Yeah, no, that's I mean, onward and upward, right. If anything.

Alastair Thompson: [00:35:38] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Manseeb Khan: [00:35:39] All right, Alastair, to wrap this up, is there any last little tidbit you want to give the audience? Anything, any little golden nuggets before, you know, before we close this guy out?

Alastair Thompson: [00:35:57] I guess we just talk about why partnerships are important, especially in this I don't know if it's post covid world or current covid world. I think we're still in it, unfortunately. But you know that the need for partnerships, I think is very clear in finance because you can bring improvements to the service that you're offering through for a relatively low build effort instead of going about and trying to do it for yourself. So, you know, banks partner with us so they don't have to hold all the correspondent banking relationships and nonbanks partnership partner with us because they don't have the ability to make payments at all. And we can partner and we can give these services to their customers through a few months of investment and effort. And I think they're going to increasingly grow in importance partnerships in the market because everybody is looking to streamline costs and invest as little as possible for high returns. And obviously, I'm a little bit biased working in partnership. I see an increasing need for them, especially in the fintech space.

Manseeb Khan: [00:37:31] Yeah. I mean to I mean, again, to your point, it it's more important now more than ever right now that we're so more or less isolated, strategic partnership is going to be the only way now and probably moving forward for you to get in the door, let alone find the door or window, know whatever metaphor you want to use to just help you as a business owner. Just that help you further, you know, expand your business?

Alastair Thompson: [00:38:03] Exactly, exactly.

Manseeb Khan: [00:38:06] Alastair, what would be the best way for our audience to find you if they want to either, you know, talk to you personally or, you know, ask more questions about TransferWise so they can learn more and or most likely, my mom will probably want to know more.

Alastair Thompson: [00:38:23] LinkedIn is my sort of go to social media so you can find me. Alastair Thompson TransferWise quite easily and such, and we should be happy to chat to your listeners and stuff.  If it's understanding super complex things. That TransferWise can solve , but I'd recommend a help center and FAQ case you get a clearer answer than from me directly. But super keen to talk on a business level.

Manseeb Khan: [00:38:53] Alastair Thank you so much for hopping on the show and I'm super excited to have you again. Hopefully in person.

Alastair Thompson: [00:39:07] That will be awesome. Thank you so much for having me on.

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